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automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing
5

automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

(OP)
I have questions about automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing (mostly 4 and or 6 and or 8 cyl ) especially cylinder head and cylinder block item

1) how many individual are involved in an automotive or engine manufacturer clean sheet gas/diesel engine design program from first concept sketch to detailed 3D model and or detail drawings ( mostly cylinder head and cylinder block )

2) is there a internet resource where i can find info about organizational chart for an automotive or engine manufacturer clean sheet gas or diesel engine program layout from first concept sketch to detailed 3D CAD model and or detail drawings with all individuals involved into such project like ex: Rank, officials titles and roles toward the project ( no proprietary data involved only project structure info needed even if the manufacturer is long gone )

3) is there anyone here that was in the past involved and assign into such a project with an auto or engine manufacturer for a clean sheet automotive gas or diesel engine design program in the past that does still remember how it was done on the drawing board and slide rules " the old way " any 3D CAD modeling person welcomed BUT i am curious on how they did it before the computer era

P.S. i am intrigue on how the process of engine conception from concept to 3D model and or detail drawings is done
Ex:( A- cylinder head bolt location, diameter and length who decides these parameter B- the water cooling ports from the cylinder block to cylinder head who is in charge of setting those parameters before being approve by the chief engineer, C- intake and exhaust port location layout and manifold mounting holes, D- is the cylinder block model done first BEFORE the cylinder head or vise versa ) i found some info on the net but not much details about the that specific process


any feedback appreciated

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

This will not answer all your questions but is the best example I know of summarizing an "old school" approach to a clean sheet engine design:
Link
Another watershed engine design, albeit less influential in the short to medium term than the Chevy smallblock, is the Chrysler Firepower V8 with hemispherical combustion chambers, introduced in the 1951 model year. There is also an SAE transaction publication on this engine, but I was unable to find a link in a quick search. There is also an excellent digest of the design and development of the original Chrysler Hemi and its siblings from DeSoto and Dodge that you might find somewhere on the web. Here is a image of the cover page:

I would argue that the historical stature of the Chrysler Firepower is similar to the Chevy smallblock, due to its strong ties to racing engines both in genesis, and its own subsequent history and influence. The fundamental philosophy of maximizing breathing occurs over and over again in subsequent Detroit premium engine designs, to whit, the Chevy bigblock, Ford 385, Boss 302, and 335, on to the modern 4-valve layouts like Quad4 and so on.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

If there are N people involved in the design of an engine, then there are probably about 100*N people involved in the design of the machinery, assembly line, factory buildings, supply chain, logistics, etc., in stamping out hundreds of them per hour.

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

1. Nowadays? Thousands.
2. No. But your question is indicative of not knowing how things actually work nowadays. The manufacturer who puts their name on the eventual complete engine is only one piece of a very large puzzle that involves hundreds of suppliers. For example, pistons are probably bought from a company that specialises in manufacturing pistons. Piston rings are probably bought from a different company that specialises in making piston rings. The oil pump is probably bought as a complete assembly from a supplier that specialises in making oil pumps and they are in turn probably farming out manufacturing many of the individual bits and pieces that go into the oil pump. The ECU, which is an integral part of the system, is probably bought from a supplier that builds those. And so forth.
3. See above post.

To address your last paragraph, certainly the engine manufacturer will have a core group of designers who come up with the concept design and refine various aspects of the combustion system, intake and exhaust, cooling system, etc including all sorts of computational fluid dynamics and finite-element analysis. They will come up with "envelopes" (outside shape, and perhaps a general concept of what's inside, and performance specifications) for certain parts and accessories (e.g. the above-mentioned oil pump) and leave the supplier to finish the detailed design of those parts and accessories, then incorporate that into the model when more information becomes available, and so forth, iteratively - just like how any other design project goes.

Cylinder block and head will be designed together, iteratively. Perhaps they will start with a rough sketch based on prior experience, then apply refinements, then change things as problem areas are found and identified, etc.

Coolant flow through the block and head has to be treated as a complete system, together.

The combustion system requires extreme attention nowadays as this is critical to the engine's eventual emissions and fuel consumption performance. The intake and exhaust ports ... form part of that combustion system. The bore and stroke of the cylinder ... form part of the combustion system!

Study some of the details in this video ... carefully. There are many lessons to be learned here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWHq-Qr903g

That would not be achieved without a team designing the entire package together ... not designing a cylinder block without consideration for the cylinder head and then designing a cylinder head afterward to make it fit.

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

Although I took manual drafting on the board in high school, the automotive world hasn't used drafting boards in several decades so I cannot comment on that time period. However, I have spent most of the last decade in engine development and worked within an OE research dept separate from product development as a design engineer on several systems for several years.

Don't confuse the company org chart with the project's. The larger engine development divison is typically broken into teams/depts by system, of which 1-2 engineers will be assigned to each project as necessary. Thus for any engine design there are really a handful of managers ultimately responsible for approving everything - head&block, air system, fuel system, ignition, etc with maybe 1-2 engineers beneath each of them doing the actual work. As engines move from research to product development to production, naturally the size of the project team within the OE grows from a core handful to a few dozen when you include calibration and validation, both in-cell and in-vehicle. If you include suppliers, you could see 100+ engineers involved pretty easily. Typically an idea for a major improvement begins within a dedicated research group independent of product development (knowledge for the sake of knowledge, instead of profit), tested on either a modified production engine or on a stripped test engine/bed for a specific system before becoming the basis for a new product that involves new design for most every system. Hardware iterations happen frequently, and its not unusual for OE engineers to begin testing cobbled production parts before effectively saying "build this new widget" via a mostly developed design to suppliers as the project develops. Usually vehicle and/or application engineers get involved once production-intent iron testing begins, and eventually the engine passes all performance, durability, and emissions testing both in the dyno cell and in the final vehicle/application, hopefully about the time the manufacturing and supply chain folks are ready to fire up the various production lines.

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

The Conley Stinger provides an interesting perspective on how long it takes an *individual* to produce a new engine design. The engine is a 6.09 ci V-8 producing about 5.5 HP normally aspirated and 9 HP supercharged. The designer/builder sells them commercially, and his "Update Sheets" chronicling the development go back to 2007. I'm pursuing a new engine design myself, and find it daunting even though I have long experience developing new products by the R&D team I used to lead. I've got three years into my engine and have yet to cut metal. I bet it will be at least seven more years before I have a prototype that works well enough to sell the approach to a company willing to refine and optimize the design for production.

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

I plan to order the book "The Ford-Cosworth DFV, The Inside Story of F1’s Greatest Engine" which apparently provides an inside look at the development of a racing engine. It's available used on Amazon for under $100. I loved "The Soul of a New Machine" describing the development of mini-computers in the late 70's, and I imagine this book about the Cosworth DFV engine will be equally fascinating.

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

(OP)
so from what I have learned here is that most of the time in ICE manufacturing industry there might be about 2 engineers ( assign for the particular task of detailed modeling of a part on paper or 3d cad with the feedback from other designing engineer ) in the detail design of a cylinder head or a cylinder block first clean sheet prototype now in the old time there would be draftsmen involved with those engineer how many of draftsmen would be involved in such a project only for the bare detail cylinder head drawings or bare detail cylinder block drawings ( can a draftsman design the whole cylinder head or cylinder block drawings from the other engineers feedback? or do you need three or four draftsmen for each of these component? I am intrigue

P.S. in the SAE paper about the conception of the Small Block Chevrolet V8 from what I read it seams that the crankshaft was designed first because it is length of the crankshaft that will define the entire length of the cylinder block ( so I assume that is the first detail drafted part in the assembly drawings of a clean sheet engine design after the last approved concept sketch is done of the entire engine assembly! INTERESTING :)

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

WAG 10 engineers, 10 drafties. Mind you, a crankshaft took 1 lead engineer, 3 others part time, a consultant, and a draftie.

Bear in mind there are several sets of drawings for each component, from castings through to the finished part.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

Speaking of racing engines and the Chevy smallblock, here is something all'y'all might find interesting.

Check this memo from Zora Arkus- Duntov to GM management dated 1953.....
“THOUGHTS PERTAINING TO YOUTH, HOT RODDERS, AND CHEVROLET”
The Hot Rod movement and interest in things connected with hop-up and speed is still growing. As an indication: the publications devoted to hot rodding and hop-upping, of which some half dozen have a very large circulation and are distributed nationally, did not exist some six years ago.

From cover to cover, they are full of Fords. This is not surprising that the majority of hot rodders are eating, sleeping, and dreaming modified Fords. They know Ford parts from stern to stern better than Ford people themselves.
A young man buying a magazine for the first time immediatly becomes introduced to Ford. It is reasonable to assume that when hot rodders or hot rod-influenced persons buy transportation, they buy Fords. As they progress in age and income, they graduate from jalopies to second-hand Fords, then to new Fords.
Should we consider that it would be desirable to make these youths Chevrolet-minded? I think that we are in a position to carry out a successful attempt. However, there are many factors againt us:
Loyalty and experience with Ford.
Hop-up industry is geared with Ford.
Law of number-thousands are and will be working on Fords for active competition.
Appearance of Ford’s overhead V8, now one year ahead of us.
When a superior line of GM V8’s appeared, there where remarkably few attempts to develop these, and none too successful. Also, the appearance of the V8’s Chrysler was met with reluctance even though the success of Ardun-Fords conditioned them to the acceptance of Firepower.
This year is the first one in which isolated Chrysler development met with succsess. The Bonneville records are divided between Ardun-Fords and Chryslers.
Like all people, hot rodders are attracted by novelty. However, bitter experience has taught them that new development is costly and long, and therefore they are extremely conservative. From my observation, it takes an advanced hot rodder some three years to stumble toward the successful development of a new design. Overhead Fords will be in this stable between 1956 and 1957.
The slide rule potential of our RPO V8 engine is extremely high, but to let things run their natural course will put us one year behind-and then not too many hot rodders will pick Chevrolet for development. One factor which can largely overcome this handicap would be the availability of ready-enginered parts for higher output:
If the use of the Chevrolet engine would be made easy and the very first attempts would be crowned with succsess, the appeal of the new RPO V8 engine will take hold and not have the stigma of expensiveness like the Cadillac or Chrysler, and a swing to Chevrolet may be anticipated.This means the development of a range of special parts-camshafts, valves, springs, manifolds, pistons, and such-should be made available to the public.
To make good in this field, the RPO parts must pertain not only to the engine but to the chassis coponents as well. In fact, the use of light alloys and brake development, such as composite drums and discs, are already on the agenda of the Research and Development group.
These thoughts are offered for what they are worth-one man’s thinking aloud on the subject.
Signed: Z. Arkus-Duntov
dated: 12/16/53

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

Engine design and manufacturing will vary depending on the application or what the engine is intended to power.
In the old days I'm sure the task was assigned to an engine design group, multiple ideas would be submitted, and of course there is a leader or department head that works to put all ideas together with the team. If the application is automotive one of the steps would be a wood model to check fitment and mounting various accessories etc. Depending on how revolutionary the design is single cylinder running models are made to establish strength of components and check operating parameters, then of course all the gained knowledge is then built into the prototype, then after all the bugs are ironed out, wood patterns are made or modified from the prototype, and then a small production run would be made to then test the manufacturing techniques and the engines. I think the durability tests would be done from single cylinder into the production run.
Since they didn't have FEA in the day, all stressed components where tested the old fashion way, strain gauges and stress coat. In my opinion those old timers did an absolutely fantastic job especially with what they had to work with.
I guess they call that the great generation for a good reason, most all new technology we have now is from them. Yeah all they had for awhile was vacuum tubes but look what they accomplished. Oh and the Small block Chevrolet V-8 is such a clean well designed engine, and very likely the best automotive ICE ever, nothing is perfect and there is always room for improvement, but for what it was designed for it sure came close to perfect.

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

Some of your design and organization questions might be answered by John Manning’s book, Internal Combustion Engine Design, published by Ricardo, 2012. ISBN 978095732920-1. This is the only engine design book, known to me, that discusses the organization of a design team.

enginesrus is correct, the amount of work involved in engine design varies enormously with the technical requirements of the engine. Meeting automotive emissions and fuel requirements are really tough technical challenges that have cost the industry much more than was spent going to the moon.

A lone engineer can design a base engine. Some who visit this forum who can do it. With off the shelf fueling and ignition, the engine will run and with luck it will be within 85 – 90% of the goal. But the last 10% in the emissions game is hard won ground and is more than one person can manage.

In a by-gone era when side valve engines were the norm, Harold Hicks could dash off a design for the Model A in a couple months. Getting the same engine through emissions testing would be a daunting if not impossible prospect today. The Nordberg radial diesel with vertical crank was designed by one engineer and two draftsmen in a year. Your efforts to study past designs will not be wasted.

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

Back in the Model A era, it was more-or-less sufficient if the engine could be started (most of the time) and ran at all.

Modern demands to be as efficient as possible while complying with extremely tough emission standards and meeting targets for power, driveability, durability, noise, smoothness, etc and be as light and compact as possible, and start and function and comply with emission standards over the full plausible range of ambient temperatures and pressures seen on earth, AND be comparatively inexpensive to manufacture ... makes that design job a whole lot more complicated.

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

We still use draftsmen today, just fewer in that there's probably ~10 engineers per. That's not to imply they work alone as large prints like blocks will involve at least several draftsmen working weeks to complete dozens of D-size sheets covered in small font. Head prints are usually simple by comparison so only one draftsman might be necessary.

As to the efficiency of old engines, I'm reminded of the ballad of old Betsy. She is proof that our predecessors held themselves to some fairly high standards. Keep in mind that early engines like all since were designed by a team of engineers tho one name often overshadows the rest in short history articles.

https://www.caterpillar.com/en/news/caterpillarNew...

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

(OP)
so from what I understand is that a panel of engineers will tell the draftsmen there dimensions coordinate like bolt diameter and length where the bolt holes should be located, cylinder bore thickness, rocker shaft mounting bosses and all other features pertinent to the design of the part, that must be fun to see all of the interactions between all those engineers trying to make sense of the whole model I assume that each of them have specific roles concerning that project :)

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

CWBI,

Draftsmen making D sized prints? Really? I get drawings directly from my 3D CAD models in Solidworks!

It's very cool that Old Betsy, designed in the 1930's, passed California emissions in the mid 1970's. I think this was likely due to the fact that early emissions standards were more efficiency standards than anything else, and efficiency was/is the only reason to endure the problems of a diesel design.

Rod

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

When we drew engines on Mylar almost all of our drafties were ex-toolroom apprentices, so they had a good handle on design process, and manufacturing. Engineers would size bolts and valve diameters and so on, but the nitty gritty of design details was largely down to the drafty.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

(OP)
just wondering can someone get a copy of those obsolete engine parts drawings from an automotive manufacturer ex( a 1974 ford 170 CID 6 cylinder) either the cylinder block or cylinder head drawings like Studebaker or old GM obsolete engine or any engine manufacturer out of business like AMC just wondering I am not looking for the newer tech only interested in the design of them so an old design is just fine

RE: automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing

Quote:

Draftsmen making D sized prints? Really? I get drawings directly from my 3D CAD models in Solidworks!

As do they, tho typically Creo or Catia due to the size and complexity of the models. The prints are typically scaled to provide small but legible 8-10pt font on D. Printing on smaller paper would result in illegibly small writing. When I'm checking a large print I find a combination of electronic and paper copies necessary. I do markups electronically (generally work paperless) but with a dozen or more large sheets to check there's a ton of back-forth between sheets and I find the paper copy handy for flipping when the screens are zoomed in on a specific area and/or taking quick notes.

Engineering today typically provides a finished, checked model and drafting only does the print, nothing design related. Through the 90s and early Y2ks it was common in some companies for engineering depts to have CAD designers do the modeling for the engineers, but that's becoming less common today as more of our models are directly driven by CAE rather than eyeball and hand-calcs, so engineers are usually handling the modeling as well.

As to old "legacy" prints, there are a number of them in the public domain that can be found via google. Those escaped via both marketing and less than legal means over the years, but generally most companies don't share old prints publicly.

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